The rational proof for the existence of the Creator

[Brother Hassan]

I believe that believing that God is infinitely loving is saner than thinking God may be mean because religion makes life better unless it becomes your life

Unless it becomes your life ? Explain if you would please.

[cluelusshusbund]

Of course there was a "Creator." What is the Creator, though? Why does it have to be a God or deity? Why can't the Big Bang which created the Universe be that origin that water needs to exist? We still have a Creator just because it doesn't have a mind or consciousness.

 

Seeing how pointless existence is (the monotonous daily chores of waking up, eating, working for food and shelter and then sleeping until tomorrow) its no wonder why religion exists. We need something to believe in. To make us feel like there is a reason to our continued existence. Religion fills this hole. We feel like there is a bigger picture in which we are needed.

 

Yeah i think most people have that type of hole that needs fillin... but i seem content wit not tryin to make myself believe nonsense... an instead... just admit that i have no idea how we "came to be"... but i hope the horrors of life wasnt intentionally created... cause if so... that monster is likely still alive an mayb not done wit us yet

[torpex2002]

It seems to me that belief in gods is much more about emotional (usually called spiritual) wellbeing, than rationality.

 

It was surely inevitable that emotional and highly ignorant beings would subscribe to various comforting but conveniently unfalsifiable myths they concocted, and that as their ignorance shrunk, so too would their belief in such myths.

 

This is, after all, the very first lesson of scripture, genesis; trust that there is a god who made you, don't question this, don't seek knowledge of what is true or false (yes, that's what it says in Hebrew, not "good and evil") because if you do learn the truth, your blissfull ignorance will be stripped from you and you will realize you are indeed mortal.

 

What people may believe is not my concern, I have no desire to tread on their beliefs, but since the OP has made a thread about rational proof, I feel I can tread freely on the subject of what is proven true or rationally accepted as true, vs what is not.

 

Bertrand Russel summed up my views on the matter:

“There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably some part of him is aware that they are myths and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dare not face this thought! Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not rational, he becomes furious when they are disputed.”

 

The only difference is, I don't really think that beliefs in gods are feeble or contemptible, I just feel the need to respond to those who claim such beliefs are rational, reasonable, based on logic, or based on reality.

 

the belief itself undeniably serves several valid and useful purposes that I can think of, but I maintain it remains just that - a very useful belief, not a reflection of reality.

 

I also think the bulk of those who call themsleves christians appreciate this deep down, although for obvious reasons they generally cannot openly concede it. It does happen though, usually in private and anonimously.

 

Islam overall, appears to be effectively where christianity was 3-400 years ago; highly dependent on religion for social functioning, a lack of tolerance for gender equality, homosexuality, leaving the religion, etc, however, the world is becoming a smaller place. I predict a rapid catch up to what are considered current western values. there's less and less hardcore muslims in general, and it seems the further away humans in general are from the equator, desperation, strife, struggle, hunger, disease, hopelessness, etc, the less religiously fundamentalist they tend to be.

 

Short of writing an entire book, that's a summary of how I see theistic religions and beliefs, and a response to the OP for either forgetting, denying, or not appreciating what religious faith is all about.

[azmender22]

hmmm "Who created the creator?" Personally I think that "Creation" is so vast, that we are ill equipped to comprehend the number of stars let alone galaxies, or for that matter the grains of sand on a beach. We are each unique, first and last editions, no run if the mill "knock offs" in this Creation. No sir. Genuine individuals. Apparently room for all, regardless of belief...or non belief. You may not believe in a creator or creation...but It Sure Does Believe In You.

 

Everyday we make new discoveries. Vast gets...well...even More Vast. No surprises there. "Who created the creator?" I posit that Creation is Complete, like a circle, or a mobius strip. Complete. And so to ask "Who created the creator?" is like trying asking where the beginning point and end point of a Circle is. Choose ANY point, and that Is the answer. Choose a different point an INFINITE amount of times and they are equally, the right answer. Complete, infinite creation, by a wholly Complete Infinite Creator, choose any Beginning point, and that is the answer, and like the circle, Choose ANY beginning Creator Point in the Circle of Creation, an infinite number of times, and they all are the right answer.

 

Anyway, that's the way I think about it. I surely can't get wrapped around vast, infinite creation, but I can get wrapped around a circle, and I know that I am a part of that circle, and I remember that we we all are a part of that circle, that Creation of Infinite Beginnings.

[Vordar]

QUOTE (Hassan-The-Muslim @ Jul 9 2011, 10:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Comments anyone ?

Who created the Creator? You say everything is limited and must rely on something else that is also limited. Therefor, shouldn't someone or something have created the Creator?

 

This is one of those things that befuddles everyone. It's one of those things that you really must just accept or not accept. A lot of evolutionists say it's ridiculous that a Creator would just come into existence without being created, and that it makes no sense that a Creator could just- POOF!- pop into existence. And creationists counter that it makes the same amount of sense (or, more accurately, lack of it) that something like the Big Bang could just- POOF! - happen.

 

What physical, demonstrable effect does a god have?

 

Creationists say things such as miracles in real life, dreams ("visions") with predictions that come true and other related events are proof.

 

However, dreams and other things can often be explained away, and there is no one who can actually give solid, totally credible evidence of a Creator. It is just the question: "To Be(lieve) or Not To Be(lieve)".

 

[JCMiller]

If you're looking for proof of a creator, you're thinking with the wrong frame.

 

There are two types of 'things that are right/correct,' I call them truth and fact. Facts are objective things that happen (which are true for everyone, but ultimately mean very little to us), truth is our subjective interpretation of what happened, which is exclusive to each person.

 

Example:

- Truth: He threw that shoe at me. (contains inherent interpretation of intention and is subjective)

- Fact: The muscles in his arm combined with the laws of physics caused the shoe to travel through the air at a speed of ... etc. (this is not just a more technical way of saying the first sentence, it is different because there is no implied interpretation of behavior)

 

We tend to make everything into truth because it's simpler that way, truth tells us how to act, fact comes with no such prescription. Truth means everything to us, facts mean very little to the everyday decisions we make. In the above example, let's pretend like the person who threw the shoe was your spouse and did it during a fight. How would you react? Compare that to another pretend situation where a mentally challenged individual threw the shoe at you without realizing what he was doing.

 

I don't believe in God the way anyone else does, my beliefs/actions could just as well be atheism as they are theism. That being said,

 

Our belief in God doesn't have a place in the realm of fact because fact is utterly meaningless to most of our decisions about our lives. Trying to prove or disprove the existence of God is like trying to scientifically prove that the mentally challenged person did or did not intend to throw the shoe at you. Even if you could somehow find evidence for or against God (other than circumstantial interpretations), it would ultimately be meaningless. Nobody is going to believe in God because someone else tells them to.

 

That's what's so great about it, ultimately it's up to us to decide how to view the world, how to interpret the events we see. Anyone who tries to force you to either believe or disbelieve in God does not have your best interests in mind. Figure it out for yourself, if you care.