djzebbie Posted August 31, 2012 Posted August 31, 2012 !!! TL;DR ALERT !!! In a thread I started, I believe yesterday, I mentioned that I had purchased a domain -- two, actually (a .com and a .net) -- for which the company had yet to reply with an email indicating receipt of payment, and that yesterday they emailed me asking what DNS servers I wanted for my domain. I responded in turn, expecting that someone would at least acknowledge they got the email about DNS, but no one did. Thinking maybe it was my own error or some glitch in the system, I also cc'ed a copy to other addresses, one for Billing, one for Accounts, one for General Info, and another for Orders. No reply has yet come into my email, and I'm getting a little apprehensive -- especially after reading some reports about this company online. The company is called Katz Global Media, and reportedly is run out of some fellow's trailer park in Arizona, named Gordon Hayes aka Scott Morgan. (The first email was signed by a "Paris Hayes," either a family member/spouse or pseudonym, I can't be sure.) A legal battle ensued over a possible cybersquatter case involving a family-owned restaurant in California for which the owner, a man named Tom, had neglected to renew the domain TomsFamilyRestaurants.com (which is now unreachable), and saw it snapped up by an anonymous registrant who bought it with Katz and was accused of using it for "bad faith" purposes. This Tom's Family Restaurants case was back in 2005, I believe, and there's another (archived) thread at a forum called Web Hosting Talk dated from the same year or thereabouts discussing the allegedly dubious merits of Katz as a webhost and registrar. The thread mentions another site known as CattyShaq.com (via Internet Archive), on which a series of threads (not readable, only viewable via the Wayback Machine) issuing complaints was deleted when the owner of Katz threatened legal action for "defamation of character." CattyShaq appears to no longer exist in the form it once existed, and is now some other site written entirely in what appears to be Japanese. But this was, of course, seven years ago, and this being 2012, Like Mulder (or was it Scully?) said on The X-Files, "I want to believe" -- I want to give Katz the benefit of the doubt in terms of processing my account, so I am going to wait until at least Friday of next week, since Monday is a holiday in the United States and Katz, as mentioned above, is located in Arizona. I also don't know how long it will take for the payment to even get to Arizona from where I mailed it (the East Coast, so cross-country), especially considering the sadly ever-decreasing staff and schedule of the once stalwart U.S. Postal delivery. Several surreptitious fly-by-night sites operating in the MLM, HYIP and "discount RX" realms (99% of these from countries like China, India and various former Soviet republics) are hosted and/or registered with Katz, and it has been speculated that the owner is either involved somehow in some of these, or intentionally denies knowledge of the websites under the Katz trust, "pleading the Fifth" but with dubious merit. Just to point out, I am NOT running any of these kinds of services. I simply registered my own name (well, a pseudonym), not for illegitimate purposes but because I do not want certain people in my past/private life to be aware of my personal blog/website. I have suffered threats and harassment from personal acquaintances in the past, and hoped "anonymous registration" would have allowed me to make a "fresh start." Unfortunately, I feel as though I'm one of the gullible honest folks caught up in something screwy, one of the few golden eggs out of a rotten dozen all broken in the same spoiled omelette. (You kind of get what I'm saying here, right?) I went through Katz because I do need something like they purport to provide -- completely anonymous registration that not only masks your personal information in Whois records, but doesn't even ask you for it when you sign up. I also do not have a credit card or checking account and would have needed to pay by paper currency, which I (foolishly?) did. I am also boycotting Go Daddy because of Go Daddy CEO Bob Parsons' abhorrent passion for elephant hunting and his company's stance on the recent SOPA initiative (I also am patently disgusted by the Danica Patrick ads). Katz promises that Whois anonymity is bundled with registration and is not subject to an extra fee, like other hosting providers and registrars, another aspect that attracted me because of my extremely limited budget. Now, however, I am unsure the status of my domain registration and what to do regarding contacting customer service. I cannot claim copyright infringement because the name I registered is one that would be applied to a person and not a company. I am posting here, for advice, after asking a similar question on Yahoo! Answers about the situation (a few days after asking another one about how long mailing takes from NY to AZ). The responder of that last one said it would take no more than 3 days. It is now Friday, 5 days after mailing, and I'm still waiting on an email to confirm they got my DNS request. I know it's a desert out there, hence no water, but something smells fishy out in Tucson, Arizona. So should I wait until Friday of next week to contact them, which is what I intend to do, to either call up their line, email the "emergency" address, or IM via their ICQ #? If so, what should my next course of action be if (1) my DNS is not ready, (2) they haven't received the payment or (3) they don't get back to me? How can I make sure I can still use my domains? As I said, I'm on not even a shoestring budget -- more like a frayed thread -- and obviously can't afford legal fees if there is a legit red flag. My whole purpose for going with Katz was to avoid paperwork and identity requests in the first place. Does it cost money to file for an investigation with the BBB? Is it possible to request help from ICANN if something goes wrong?
Shinryuu Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 Oh dear, so much reading, I'm worried for you after reading through all the links you had. I'm not sure about the BBB but to file a report about a registrar to ICANN: http://www.internic....roblem_reports/ your problem seems to fall in the last category. I hope you can get your domain names or money back, but it seems unlikely to happen based on those forum and news posts you linked to. EDIT:So after much web crawling, I've found that to file a BBB claim: http://www.bbb.org/tucson/business-reviews/internet-services/katz-global-media-in-tucson-az-20000980/file-a-complainthowever Katz Global Media is not BBB Accredited, I found the link on Katz Global site that says they belong to the BBB but the link leads to a BBB Page not Found error page. They do have a BBB A+ rating, but they 'earned' that by being in business a long time, having few BBB complaints, and responding to complaints filed to BBB, which doesn't really say much. I also checked and they are not members of the GDCA. Overall, the company seems legit because they are still in busines after so long, but something does feel off. I also think the 3 day response you got on the mail question is totally unrealistic, standard mail generally takes a week to 10 business days, I once ordered a book in-state that was shipped standard; this book took three days to ship from panhandle to coast. I expect your post to take about 6-8 business days, 5 on a good run. 1
djzebbie Posted September 1, 2012 Author Posted September 1, 2012 Oh dear, so much reading, I'm worried for you after reading through all the links you had. I'm not sure about the BBB but to file a report about a registrar to ICANN: http://www.internic....roblem_reports/ your problem seems to fall in the last category. I hope you can get your domain names or money back, but it seems unlikely to happen based on those forum and news posts you linked to. Thanks, Shinryuu, for that link to ICANN. Based on the info at the end of your reply (about the mail time), I may just bite my nails and wait it out. But the other thing I'm pondering is to just go ahead and re-register the domain at another registrar -- One & One (1&1) appears to offer "private" (albeit not "anonymous") registration as a free option with all standard domains (like .com, .net, .org). 1&1 - Domain Registration | Info HostGator, another company I thought about going with, does not seem to offer this option free: HostGator - Domain Registration | Registry Rocket YoHost.org is another so-called "anonymous" registrar, but doesn't take payment in "standard" arrangements; they do allow PayPal, but PayPal requires an actual "credit card" (i.e. linked to a bank account) and doesn't allow for, say, a Visa Vanilla card. How is billing handled? Currently, all payments are handled automatically via PayPal, Liberty Reserve, WebMoney, cashU and moneybookers. Use our WebMoney Z-account: Z112088671007 if you wish to make a payment via WebMoney Transfer. NameCheap doesn't bundle the private registration with the domain. It's a separate fee that you have to repay every year, even if you register on a period of more than one year. And as I said, I'm boycotting Go Daddy on principle. I Whois'ed my domain(s) and found that they were still listed as unregistered. The only dilemma with that is if Katz does get back to me in the meanwhile and I've already gone with someone else, would there be a basis to initiate a "transfer" under "special circumstances" (even though I wouldn't technically be "transferring" if "no one owns" the domain "yet")? EDIT:So after much web crawling, I've found that to file a BBB claim: http://www.bbb.org/t...ile-a-complainthowever Katz Global Media is not BBB Accredited, I found the link on Katz Global site that says they belong to the BBB but the link leads to a BBB Page not Found error page. They do have a BBB A+ rating, but they 'earned' that by being in business a long time, having few BBB complaints, and responding to complaints filed to BBB, which doesn't really say much. I also checked and they are not members of the GDCA. GDCA = Global Digital Currency Association. I had a read about "digital currency" and truth be told, I'm not too trusting of these bitcoin/e-gold-type marketers. I get that people are totally disgusted with what the global bankers have done to the world economy -- Bank of America, Chase, UBS just to name a few -- and that there are people who want to set up something new to topple them, people who really regard the Internet as the society of the future and the world governments as irrevocably bought and corrupt. But, we're not there yet, and it seems to me that a lot of these bitcoin/e-gold folks are 99% scammers... scamming the "99%." One of the threads talked about the CEO of Katz actually having started one of these things, something called Phoenix Dollars. Allegedly he sold people silver bits for $250+ that were worth no more than $7. Fools' gold, it sounds like. Or fools' silver in this case. Overall, the company seems legit because they are still in busines after so long, but something does feel off. I also think the 3 day response you got on the mail question is totally unrealistic, standard mail generally takes a week to 10 business days, I once ordered a book in-state that was shipped standard; this book took three days to ship from panhandle to coast. I expect your post to take about 6-8 business days, 5 on a good run. So that'd likely be this Friday anyway or next Monday because of the holiday, maybe not until the Friday of that week, and there's still no guarantee customer service will respond. So what would your advice be, or anyone else who happens to catch onto this thread -- should I sign up with another registrar (leaning towards One & One as of this point), explain my circumstances to their customer service, and maybe try and initiate a "pseudo-transfer" (or not)? Or should I wait it out for maybe 2 weeks (rather than just this upcoming Friday) to see if my payment gets received, take a chance Katz will get back to me with the setup email, bite the bullet for the requisite 60 days with them and then try and transfer to someone else? I think either way I'm out $280 bucks, because I ordered the 10-year option (it was about $14/domain for 2 domains, 10 years). I'm leaning towards re-registering, but once again I'm a little trepid about what to do. Any help is very much appreciated. Also, just as a humble recommendation, maybe HelioHost can offer a list of domain registrars to avoid, Katz being one of them (and Go Daddy as a :maybe," perhaps with an asterisk and a note at the bottom about "principle"). I'd gladly offer my customer horror story. But as a plus for you guys, I've gotten better service here with a freebie web host for $0 than I've gotten for close to three hundred bucks from some vulture in the wild west of Arizona. I guess it's not always true that you get what you pay for.
Shinryuu Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 Personally I'd wait it out a bit till maybe wednesday end of business before doing anything rash. If you do go through another registrar right now you're guaranteed to lose the money, but if you wait and file ICANN/BBB claims (if necessary) you have a shot at getting your money/domains back. I'm not sure how the anonymous registration would work out though, it seems a bit one-sided. You're basically asking a company to be your 'face' on the ICANN registry yeah? If nothing is under your name I think it might be exponentially harder to try and get any help because you are using another entity as a front and putting your trust in them that they won't leave you out in the cold. However since there is a transfer of money, as long as it's not cash it can be traced, money orders and cheques both have identification numbers and when cashed out a record of their value is stored within the bank or Western Union or whatever's systems. 1
djzebbie Posted September 1, 2012 Author Posted September 1, 2012 Personally I'd wait it out a bit till maybe wednesday end of business before doing anything rash. If you do go through another registrar right now you're guaranteed to lose the money, but if you wait and file ICANN/BBB claims (if necessary) you have a shot at getting your money/domains back. OK, I'll wait it out a little while more. I'm not sure how the anonymous registration would work out though, it seems a bit one-sided. You're basically asking a company to be your 'face' on the ICANN registry yeah?If nothing is under your name I think it might be exponentially harder to try and get any help because you are using another entity as a front and putting your trust in them that they won't leave you out in the cold. Yeah, that's pretty much how it works. Or if I go with another company that actually has a front-end for managing domains, I would register under my own (or something "generic") and then add-on the "private" registration service. Anonymous registration seems different from private registration in that with anonymous registration, you don't even provide your personal info, and with private, you do, but it gets covered up by the company. Trouble is, there have been instances where the registrar caves to the slightest bit of pressure -- not even from the government or law enforcement, necessarily, but even, say, someone who just doesn't like what the person had on their site and pushes the company to cough up the record. The CNet article I linked to up top, "Private Domains Not So Private," talks about exactly that: A librarian intending to blow the whistle on the alleged drama and politics involved in poetry competitions did so under a pseudonym, and used Go Daddy's "Domains By Proxy" service intending to protect his identity. Go Daddy caved to the pressure of the people involved in the poetry competitions, and the guy got in major shiitake for exercising his right to freedom of speech. Pretty interesting when considering the root of "library" -- libre, from which we also get liberty and the word libro meaning book in Romance languages -- itself means free. ("Free as in speech" is even part of the Free Software philosophy, the "libre" part rather than "gratis" as in no-cost.) After all, didn't Benjamin Franklin organize the first public libraries in the U.S., and didn't he also write under a nom de plume, "Publius"? Then at the bottom is where a commenter on the article talks about Katz Media, in response to someone else's question about anonymous registrations. And as I also had mentioned, Katz itself was able to shut down the anti-scam website that blew the whistle on the company's allegedly dubious practices. Talk about a chilling effect from a not-so-cool Katz. Thing is, people often think this service is either just so spammers don't bombard your site address, personal email or even send old-fashioned junk mail to your home/business address, or harvest information from the registry that could be used to do so. Or that only someone with surreptitious purposes for registration would want to be "covered." When actually, there are legitimate purposes, such as whistleblowers (like the librarian and CattyShaq), political/social activists and nonprofit groups, and like mine, keeping one's personal info closely guarded because of people I've known personally who I don't want to get in contact with me. It's why I don't use Facebook or Twitter either to talk to people from "the 'good' old days." Like Billy Joel said in "Keepin' The Faith," "the good old days weren't always good." However since there is a transfer of money, as long as it's not cash it can be traced, money orders and cheques both have identification numbers and when cashed out a record of their value is stored within the bank or Western Union or whatever's systems. It was cash. If you also read the first Yahoo! question you'd see I sent them money. That's why I'm hoping they'll get back to me, so at least I can still have my domain from them, and then maybe transfer the 10-years' agreement to someone else after the minimum 60-days' (or 90-days') registration period. But per your advice, I'll sweat it out over the weekend and then get back to them on Wednesday. If I don't at least hear from them by the following Monday I'll file a claim with the BBB and ICANN. Luckily I still have my initial confirmation record (and the subsequent threads, as well as the bookmarks and even this thread), not that it's good for much but it does show even a minimum of something regarding this situation. And I really appreciate your support and encouragement, Shinryuu. If there's a place to vote for member of the month here at Helio, I'll put my (metaphorical) $.02 in for you.
Shinryuu Posted September 1, 2012 Posted September 1, 2012 If you also read the first Yahoo! question you'd see I sent them money. I've slept since then As for private registration, I'd just as soon slit my wrist than use any of godaddy's services; after getting shinryuukai.co.cc registered at co.cc i had to obviously set nameservers, as it so happened I chose 1freehosting, however their nameservers were blacklisted. After some searching I found 1freehosting was owned by godaddy and I had already read a zdnet article about their disdain for ICANN policies and how they'll essentially force you to stay with them if you're in their DBP program, so I quickly changed to heliohost and have been happy since. As for Franklin's pen-name, it was Silence Dogood. He actually had a lot, but Silence was his first, and was made famous in National Treasure.
djzebbie Posted September 6, 2012 Author Posted September 6, 2012 Hi Shinryuu, I'm just giving you, and anyone else who happens upon this thread, an update regarding my situation with Katz Global. Per your advice, I waited until today, Wednesday 05 Sept 2012, "before doing anything rash" i.e. taking my business to another registrar. Well, I sent Katz Global an email at about 4 PM EDT (which would be 2 PM in Arizona): Hello, I am sending a message to inquire about the status of my domain order,placed Aug 26 2012 at your site and with payment sent Aug 27 2012 viastandard U.S. mail. Has my payment yet been received? Is there anyother action I will need to take to secure my domains? Please note that if I do not hear back from you by at least Friday ofthis week, and/or if I have not received my setup email by at leastnext Monday, I will assume that my order has not been able to becompleted, possibly due to delivery error or other unforeseeableconflict, and I will need to cancel my order (less payment) and seekservices from another registrar. I appreciate your efforts thus far and anticipate your reply. Anyassistance or information you can offer is greatly appreciated. They actually replied, and now I'm just crossing my fingers that the payment is in the P.O. box and I'm not out $280: Hello, Scott will be going to our P.O Box tomorrow for mail pickup. I am sure your payment will be in there. ("Scott," I'm guessing, is the aforementioned Mr. Hayes' alter ego.) I kept a cool head and responded with a courteous acknowledgment: OK, thanks again for your reply. Just as a refresher, the DNS servers I'll need for my domains are: ns1.heliohost.orgns2.heliohost.org I look forward to receiving your email to setup my domains. Again, ifany further issues arise, please do not hesitate to contact me at thisaddress. Well, that's where I stand right now, the most recent transmission. All I can do from my end right now is hope that 1) I get the setup email soon (if in fact this guy does open his mailbox and my envelope is there), and that 2) they got the memo about my Helio nameservers. Oh, and I looked up "Publius" and found that it was not Ben Franklin's pseudonym but the authors of The Federalist Papers -- James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and John Jay. (Same spirit of "libre" = "liberty," though.) I will continue to keep you and the rest of Helio's community posted, as issues with domains and registrars must affect all of us here on the tangled Web. EDIT -- Friday, 07 Sep 2012, 15:25 GMT-5, 13:25 GMT-7. (I sound like Joe Friday a little bit there.) Katz has sent a response after I messaged them at about 12:30 GMT-5 (10:30 GMT-7), inquiring about whether the payment was picked up in the mailbox. At 15:25 GMT-5 (13:25 GMT-7), they replied, with an apology stating that the P.O. box is an hour away from the office. Following that, I got the setup email, and per the message, my domains are indeed registered and pointed to Helio's DNS servers, and another payment is not due until 2022. I have sent them a thank-you response, and from where I stand it appears this situation has been resolved. The only way to test now is to configure my domains in cPanel and wait 48 hours for the configuration to take place and the cache to clear. If I run into any problems with configurations, I will start a new thread rather than continue to update this one. Thank you again, Shinryuu, for your advice and understanding. Helio needs a kudos box just for users like you.
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